Report 1583
Report #1583 Skillset: Moon Skill: Succumb Org: Shofangi Status: Completed Jan 2017 Furies' Decision: Solution 2 without 1. We will adjust numbers to compensate. Problem: Succumb currently has two components, a tick which causes mana drain based on mental afflictions, and a general status that causes all mental afflictions received during that time to drain 500 mana. The latter part is currently too punishing in groups and too flat in damage. The tick is calculated such that after 3 affs each aff is worth 12% of max mana which means that in group scenarios succumb is extra punishing. This report seeks to reduce the overwhelming effects of succumb in groups without overly impacting 1v1 scenarios. R: 0 Solution #1: Succumb now only causes mana damage from afflictions that are from the Moon user, and only if the afflicted target does not already have the affliction. In other words if someone has stupidity and succumb giving them stupidity again will not trigger the drain and an ally of the Moon user cannot cause the drain at all. R: 0 Solution #2: Solution 1 and Change the aff-received and tick damage calculation as follows: On mental aff received received cause 200 + 3% mana damage. Tick calculation is changed to 750 + 7% max mana per mental aff. Player Comments: ---on 12/14 @ 14:55 writes: Wobou graciously approached me onto that and we have agreed upon this a balancing step. He also offered to use his report slot to address this. I think it's a good try to see if this bring succumb into balance in large group, while keeping it actually useful and good. Full support to solution #1 by me ---on 12/14 @ 15:35 writes: It seems like a step in the right direction. The issue might not actually be resolved but at least the burden won't be as strongly felt in groups. Provided waning is still not functioning in the manner it was intended to for report 1505, I think the mana drains are fine. There are definitely a lot of ways a Moondancer can give mental afflictions such as Room Dark/Targeted Dark/Crone/Hexes/Etc so if its still an issue in groups maybe the mana drains can be tweaked a little. So I'm in support of the solution, and we can see how things pan out from there. ---on 12/15 @ 09:28 writes: I feel it should either allow all Moon users to count or alternatively allow each Moon user to place their own succumb upon a target. ---on 12/15 @ 17:46 writes: You have a 10 second timespan in which to deal mental afflictions and renegerate enough power for the toad, no one will use dark to get an affliction, too expensive and unreliable for this purpose (not guaranteed you get an aff). Only way you will see dark is in setting up of a fortress/defense room. Similarly, crone will contribute exactly 1 affliction, as will beast hypnoticgaze, if lucky (maybe two, but that's very lucky). Not sure if the waning mechanic should be happening, it would require to rebalance succumb entirely. ---on 12/15 @ 22:53 writes: Supported. My understanding is that in 1v1 Moondancers still have trouble getting off toadcurse so it is really just groups that is the problem. ---on 12/16 @ 06:10 writes: I think this is a good way to balance out group vs solo. Though I think group drains will likely still be too high. ---on 12/16 @ 08:55 writes: I would suggest we go after we've seen how this change affects group balance. If needed we can adjust further for group problems, but I'd like to see how this changes the flow before jumping to further conclusions. ---on 12/16 @ 21:54 writes: I ma not sure why succumb would need another rebalance since the current iteration of succumb was designed with the Wane change in mind. The Fates just chose not to implement that change for whatever reason. Personally I think it is the tic that is to strong and so will need to reject this report on that basis. ---on 12/17 @ 01:13 writes: Demartel, I agree that the tick is strong and there will still be a stack in groups (as essentially everything can in this game). I don't understand why the tick being strong means that the mental-aff-received mechanic should not be reduced in groups. The wane change, to my reading, does not impact what this report is about, if the wane change had been implemented the moondancer's individual contribution to drain would be increased making succumb stronger for draining but that would not change that in groups its overly punishing. ---on 12/17 @ 04:25 writes: Assuming the consensus is that Succumb drains are fine in a solo context, how about: Remove the drain on afflict like Sol1 for the non-Succumbers. Then increase the drain on afflict a little bit, while also lowering the tic drain and/or capping the amount of mental afflictions it counts. ---on 12/17 @ 07:04 writes: From my knowledge, the game actually can't track who dealt what aff, so I don't think this is a reasonable solution. I would ask Iosai first. Why can't we just add diminishing returns to this particular facet of the skill instead? Barring that, why not gate the drain behind something only the Moon user can do, like targetted dark or a tick from the crone, etc? ---on 12/17 @ 07:14 writes: Here's another question - does succumb drain mana if you get hit with -any- mental aff or unique mental affs only? Ex: I have stupidity, if I get with another stupidity while already under succumb, do I still lose mana? If so, another approach we can look into is having this drain only happen when hit with -unique- mental affs. That way, groups can still capitalize by using different mental affs, but now they won't have to just spam stupidity for example. ---on 12/18 @ 02:43 writes: I've doublechecked with Iosai. Solution 1 is feasible coding-wise. I test Shuyin's succumb question on the test server, it does 500 drain regardless of if you have the aff or not. ---on 12/20 @ 16:13 writes: I will try to clarify better my stance, after talking with Wobou. I think this is the wrong direction that Moondancers should take. It is not the initial affliction drain, though discovering that hitting with an affliction you already have also causes drain is alarming and should be changed, but the tic that is the issue. I think the application of afflictions should remain as the group mechanic drain and the tic lowered in how much it drains. I also believe the Moondancers should be pursuing the Wane mechanic as that is where the Burst drain was meant to come from with this new iteration of succumb, back when Ryboi first proposed this new setup to us all months ago. I believe removing the Aeon from Wane will also strengthen Moondancers who use hexes, because they will be better able to support Jinx without worrying about Aeon stripping it. I accept that Moondancers are trying to lessen the impact of Succumb, I just do not believe this is the way they should be doing it. ---on 12/20 @ 16:45 writes: Report 1505 is the original succumb report, for those who may not remember. I will also say I believe having succumb's drain be a flat drain is more harmful to people with lower mana. (Right now the drain for 1 mental aff given is 7% of my 6800 mana, if I had 12300 mana it would only be 4%. The Tic Drain for 1 affliction would be 11% at 6800mana and 6% at 12300 mana, that is a huge difference) The drain should be a % based drain of maximum mana. I would suggest figuring out what percent the current drain is of a maximum mana(13/13) player and then applying that percent as the drain instead of a flat drain which is has glaring inequalities. There is a good chance that if it was switched to % that it would be the only change needed to any of the drains, and push the need for the Wane effect to be implemented even more. ---on 12/20 @ 16:55 writes: Sorry for multiple comments, My suggestion wuld be to make the on aff drain 200 +5% maximum mana, and the on tic drain 400+ 5% maximum mana for mental affs 1-3 and 400+10% maximum mana for mentals affs 4+ ---on 12/21 @ 10:23 writes: @Demartel Just as a side node, will you then envoy to replace damage kill abilities to be % based? your argumentation works for all flat vital damage abilities/attacks out there. Not sure why succumb is any different aside of that you don't like it. ---on 12/21 @ 10:26 writes: Aside of that, I can get behind a % damage to succumb if the majority of the envoys thinks it's the way to go. But, I really want to keep 1vs1 viability of moondancers, which, given your suggested numbers is no longer the case. An average raider has about 9000 mana ( an asumption ), that would mean, a hexen player can have 6 affliction drawn at the same time. they may whammy you with all six of them, given they are unhindered and the target never shields during succumb, would allow them to cause 650 mana per affliction hitting the target, causing 3900 mana drain and the target will probably cure off most of the afflictions before the next succumb tic, being, if lucky, 1 affliction per succumb tick, netting another 3400 mana drained (850 per tic). That is, even under the best of circumstances, no kill. (You will be sipping mana, and one sip gets you safely out of the kill zone). In groups, it wouldn't be much different, unless other people actively focused on supporting the succumb with throwing mental afflictions as well. And that is not even taking into account how healers or astrologers are supposed to use succumb with these proposed changes. Whereas wobou's proposed solution has none of those flaws. Please correct me if I got the numbers wrong, I have double checked, but it's possible I missed something. From my point of view, demartels proposed solution would make MD a lot less viable. The wane change is an entire different beast and would require revisiting succumbs current mechanic indeed, but I don't see why this would be neccesary. (also, removing the wane aeon won't do anyting to jinx, because -any- aeon removes jinx and wane is not really used) ---on 12/21 @ 17:09 writes: All damage is flat +%. They don't do flat period. Again, Succumb would not need a rework if the Wane mechanic was added in, because succumb was reported as this way with the Wane mechanic in mind. It was ALREADY reworked to include the drain from Waning. As far as "not liking the skill" that is an immature statement, false, and not at all relevant to the discussion, especially since I fully supported Ryboi's report that changed succumb. If the %'s are to low they can easily be adjusted, however the fact remains that they DO NEED to be adjusted and everyone knows that. ---on 12/22 @ 01:33 writes: I agree with Demartel that it should be a flat portion and percentage portion. I can't think of any player attacks in this game that are not percentage or RNG based. I also agree with him that we should get an answer on why only part of the solution for Ryboi's report was implemented. From there Demartel and I's opinions start to diverge. Assuming the tick is reworked such that with wane it is viable 1v1 which I'm presuming is the goal then it will be that much viable and more so in groups. Basically the idea that the ticks should be lowered and the wane change implemented does not lend itself to the idea of not nerfing the group component of this to me. I personally like the idea of a coordinated team using mental affs when they normally wouldn't but it's hard if not impossible to reconcile that with a viable solo skill. ---on 12/22 @ 08:34 writes: I had asked Iosai back when the report became active why the waning change was not implemented, her answer was that they felt it was too much and if we felt it was neccessary, we should make another report for the wane change and she wanted to see how the numbers would pan out. I am personally not oposed to the wane part of the change, as it was stated in the original report, if the end result remains viable. killing 1vs1 against an apponent who's got the slightest bit of thought if already very difficult if not impossible for the MD ( sure, can get you to very low mana, but hinder/shield and succumb/toad won't hurt you 1vs1, can also just walk out for a second ), aadding another step that requires timing, won't change anything for the better, but maybe it'll get us the group balance. ---on 12/29 @ 02:30 writes: Oh dear, I didn't know they didn't put in the wane change this entire time. Wow. Just to give my input, when I helped Ryboi with 1505, I was looking at it from a 1v1 perspective, and wasn't intending for groups to be able to piggyback off succumb. Generally speaking, that's why it's limited to one succumb per person - I thought that would be enough to limit it in groups. If having other mental aff casters piggyback off it is a problem, then yes, I fully support solution 1 - at the very least, solution 1 won't affect 1v1 combat, which means the original intent is fully kept. The crux here will be whether or not group fights with succumb are currently too much - if the consensus is yes, I think this is a needed change then. Secondly, the wane portion of 1505 was designed as the actual execution. The drains by themselves are not really designed to be enough, especially not in a 1v1 scenario - using wane to do a big timed burst at the end of the succumb effect was how 1505 was designed to facilitate a viable toad for an MD. If the wane change wasn't put in I'm very disappointed, partly because removing aeon from wane was one of the major objectives for it. Thirdly, regarding the flat versus percentage argument, I would argue that a flat drain is more RNG than a percentage drain, because toading is entirely percentage based. That it would be flat means that the MD has to change their strategy depending on their opponent - if their opponent has a very low mana pool, it creates incentive to target them before the traditional targets, and opponents can mitigate it with higher mana pools instead of traditional hindering or running tactics. That has, obviously, the problem of making the kill unviable if a target has a high enough mana pool, or too easy if a target has too low a mana pool. The dynamic, however, was designed with this in consideration too: the almost exponential levels of burst at higher amounts of afflictions mean that no matter how high your mana pool is, it's your curing ability versus ---on 12/29 @ 02:31 writes: The dynamic, however, was designed with this in consideration too: the almost exponential levels of burst at higher amounts of afflictions mean that no matter how high your mana pool is, it's your curing ability versus the MD's afflicting ability that will decide whether you are killable. For the lower mana pool guys... well, I thought it wasn't too much of a problem as long as the baseline the numbers were based on are reasonable. And the baseline number of the flat drains are based off a demigod with 4 tiers of mana vitals, as per my comment in the dropbox link in report 1505: "- A demigod with 4 tiers in mana vitals will have 7800 mana. The flat damage numbers are based of this: roughly 10% of such a demigod per tick without any boosts. At 3 mental affs, it'll do 3k mana damage per tick, which is slightly less than 40% of the mana pool. Naturally, this means you NEED to hit the 4 mental affs threshold to pump the mana damage up (basically double down on it) if your target has more than 4 tiers in mana vitals. Any less and you'll not have much chance of pressuring their mana, much less bursting them down. If you want to convert it to max health percentage version, using those numbers as a guide is probably a good idea. 10% for normal ticks, 3 mental affs for around 35% mana damage, and pretty much a win at 4 mental affs." ---on 12/29 @ 05:39 writes: Type MORE to continue reading. (71% shown)